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Post by parametric on Oct 27, 2014 13:40:25 GMT
Hi John,
Hope you are well - as we race headlong towards WINTER . . . . .
I have searched the Reaper Forums about this, but it seems to be a question nobody has asked . . .
Is there a way to to Ritenutos (Rallentandos)etc. with midi?
I have some orchestral midis that seem to suggest it IS possible (Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra).
When I load these into my Fusion and play them back, the tempo indicator in the display wanders around almost CONTINUALLY . . . . .
I am guessing, long way round, is to insert a longish series of decreasing tempo values in the event list?
Far nicer would be to enter a "start" and "End" address in the Bars/Beats/Clicks list and nominate a start-tempo and end-tempo and let the machine do the maths - so you get a nice smooth transition.
Most SW sequencers/DAWS seem to have a Master/Conductor track - to apply such GLOBAL controls and indeed, the HW Sequencer in my Fusion has this ability, but sadly does not include TEMPO as an option . . . .
Any thoughts?
Best Regards
Chris
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Post by JohnG on Oct 28, 2014 9:53:31 GMT
Hi Chris, Health, to be honest, could be better at the moment. How about you? Would I be right in assuming you're working on the MIDI files created some time ago by David Siu? (An excellent sequencer of tracks, IMHO.) And yes, he uses loads and loads of tempo changes. As far as I'm aware, and my experience with various sequencers/DAWS goes, getting rits and rals is by means of entering tempo changes where needed, often manually, as you indicate. With notation programs such as Finale and Sibelius such adjustment is included as a more natural process. Not sure about cheaper/free notation programs though. With some sequencer programs, where one gets 'controller pane(s)' below the Piano Roll View (PRV), it is possible to have the controller pane switch to a tempo map, as opposed to e.g. pitch bend, etc. Then one can draw a line between one point in the measure and another later point and the various individual values are then entered.  I usually find I have to experiment with establishing, e.g. for a rit, the slow value needed to rit to, enter the meta data at the point I want it, then try drawing a line or a curve, in the same way as one might adjust e.g. cc#11, expression. But the method varies between programs. If you want to enter these events manually it's often either a case of finding a special 'view' usually called the tempo map or going to the 'master' track and entering the value(s) there. Entering the values in 'list' form is a slow and painstaking process. Unfortunately I can't say whether Reaper allows this (I'm sure it does) nor how it implements it. I'm still using the antiquated XGworks for the majority of my MIDI sequencing, then moving the file to Sonar 7 PE for rendering with VST instruments. Although I'm now experimenting with Yamaha's SQ01, which seems okay so far, and has an interface that more closely matches XGworks. Any help? Please do ask for more if needed. Kind regards, John. |
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Post by parametric on Oct 29, 2014 1:30:47 GMT
Thanks John, Health seem to be OK for me in all respects ATM - fingers crossed . . . . David Siu rings a faint bell . . . . I think you may be right. He is some expert for sure, often has instrument changes on a channel too, as well as everything else . . . This makes it even more difficult to re-instrument it from the GM set, to better quality ones you may have . . . Even so, they are VERY musically done . . . (I studied "Concerto for Orchestra" at A Level, as one of my "set works" . . . .so I know it "rather well"  Interesting pointers on the tempo thing, John . . . I shall do some more poking around with Reaper . . . It may well be hidden in there somewhere . . . . . The bezier curve was the sort of thing I had in mind . . . quick to adjust and audition the effect. I guess that so many of the current "genres" of music are so "drum machine" driven, that variable tempo has just dropped off the radar (being more in keeping with "serious music"  I'll let you know what I find. I don't know if you saw, in one of the other Forums - I have made a start on a .reabank file (for Reaper) for the Fusion - which has ~7 banks in ROM (+ as many as you like, on its Hard Disk). Not of much interest unless you HAVE a Fusion, I know, but the .reabank file opens in notepad - and should be easy enough to convert to other DAWs/Sequencers if required. I'll attach it (if I can) here, for info Fusion ROM Banks.reabank (12.36 KB) At present, it only has the first four ROM Banks, = 4 x 128 Voices ("Programs" in Fusion-speak) Best Regards Chris |
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Post by parametric on Oct 31, 2014 15:11:23 GMT
The bezier curve was the sort of thing I had in mind . . . quick to adjust and audition the effect. Indeed such a parameter DOES exist, associated with the Master track. It looks quite similar to the example you show. Points may be created on a tempo "line", but dragging them up of down - does NOT create a slope, but ONLY permits a tempo change AT THAT POINT . . . I DID find another method nearby, that DID allow a slope. Applied in the Master Track, and sloping it down to "zero" - it amusingly produced an effect rather reminiscent of a spring gramophone "running down" and finally stopping . . .  Elsewhere in Reaper, there is the ability to apply "Stretch Markers" to a track (or group of tracks). THREE of these are normally used. The first and the third to ANCHOR the track in the Piece. The MIDDLE marker is used to stretch (or shrink) THAT bit of audio with respect to the track, and thus you can ( for instance) adjust a sound back ON to the beat (if it is early, or late)- WITHOUT messing up the timing of the whole track with respect to the whole piece. (IYSWIM). USING this idea, but ommitting the MIDDLE stretch marker, the section BETWEEN the two REMAINING markers can be stretched (Rallentando) or shrunk (Accelerando) - to give the desired effect. My "Piece" had at this point, Piano, Hammond, Bass Gtr, Drums and solo Gtr. As you can imagine, with these tracks being AUDIO . . . . The "on the fly" processing required to pitch-adjust those audios, simultaneously DURING the (Rit) required a LOT of processing. My system could not cope . . . A (Rit) was produced in ALL tracks, correctly, but glitching wildly . . . Not elegant, but the workaround is to render each track (effect-applied) to a new track - and then USE the processed tracks. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction  Best Regards Chris |
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Post by JohnG on Nov 1, 2014 14:12:33 GMT
The bezier curve was the sort of thing I had in mind . . . quick to adjust and audition the effect. Indeed such a parameter DOES exist, associated with the Master track. It looks quite similar to the example you show. Points may be created on a tempo "line", but dragging them up of down - does NOT create a slope, but ONLY permits a tempo change AT THAT POINT . . . I DID find another method nearby, that DID allow a slope. Applied in the Master Track, and sloping it down to "zero" - it amusingly produced an effect rather reminiscent of a spring gramophone "running down" and finally stopping . . . Elsewhere in Reaper, there is the ability to apply "Stretch Markers" to a track (or group of tracks). THREE of these are normally used. The first and the third to ANCHOR the track in the Piece. The MIDDLE marker is used to stretch (or shrink) THAT bit of audio with respect to the track, and thus you can ( for instance) adjust a sound back ON to the beat (if it is early, or late)- WITHOUT messing up the timing of the whole track with respect to the whole piece. (IYSWIM). USING this idea, but ommitting the MIDDLE stretch marker, the section BETWEEN the two REMAINING markers can be stretched (Rallentando) or shrunk (Accelerando) - to give the desired effect. My "Piece" had at this point, Piano, Hammond, Bass Gtr, Drums and solo Gtr. As you can imagine, with these tracks being AUDIO . . . . The "on the fly" processing required to pitch-adjust those audios, simultaneously DURING the (Rit) required a LOT of processing. My system could not cope . . . A (Rit) was produced in ALL tracks, correctly, but glitching wildly . . . Not elegant, but the workaround is to render each track (effect-applied) to a new track - and then USE the processed tracks. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Indeed Chris, I may have unintentionally misled you. All tempo changes are one, or a series of 'meta data' messages, similar to e.g. pitch bend or expression messages in MIDI. There is no message that can, for instance say, 'reduce tempo to zero over the course of 3 seconds using a curve that follows a particular characteristic'. They have to be inserted in one way or another. I prefer the simplicity of XGworks for 95% of MIDI file editing. Nonetheless, a series of messages can be inserted, especially if the DAW allows the drawing of lines or curves as I showed, adequately close together so that they are not detectable as 'step changes'. I spent a while yesterday looking within the Reaper forums at 'tempo' and found some very interesting articles on 'tempo map' especially 'tempo mapping 101' within 'REAPER Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto'. Although this is more to do with creating a tempo map that follows an already existing audio track (and possibly unsynchronised MIDI track too). There is now a special macro within the SWS series of add-ons to facilitate the conversion of inserted markers to tempo adjustments. Something I might well try out, although very long winded (and challenging I would have thought) for orchestral tracks. Yes, I imagine the pitch adjusting of audio requires a significant amount of CPU. I suspect a quad core i7 processor with loads of RAM and an SSD is necessary to produce glitch free results. I do all my work on an older 2 GHz core 2.2 duo laptop running XP with an E-MU PCMCIA 1616m and an external eSATA high speed drive. So far so good. It's why I work primarily in the MIDI domain until almost the final rendering. |
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Post by parametric on Nov 2, 2014 2:33:19 GMT
Not misled, John, just given further food for thought . . . Of course, you are right in that the Rit can only be "explained" to midi as a series of fixed declarations of tempo - though I guess if the PRECISION is HIGH enough, it should be possible - as indeed it IS with pitch bend (also a series of "absolute pitch" declarations, but served up VERY quickly - as a look at the event list will show ) Now, if the PB Wheel could be made to control tempo? . . . . . . . The more I use Reaper - the more I'm impressed with its depth and capability - and I'm sure I'm only scratching the surface. I'm sure MOST things can be done - if you know where to look. I've registered mine and am well pleased with the value for money it represents AS WELL as the Music I have so far made using it. Rather like you with XGWorks, I imagine . . . When you are SO familiar with the SW, it hopefully starts to become invisible - as you focus more and more on "The Music". I'm due for a PC upgrade in all honesty. I promised myself I would when this machine dies, but it refuses to It's an AMD64 3700 Athlon running at ~2.2Ghz with 4GB of ram. My MAIN system in VISTA64 HPE/SP2, but I still have XP32 HE/SP3 and Ubuntu 12.04 booted on separate HDs My problem is that my Fusion is in another room - and my experiments with midi are on an aging Acer Laptop with a Pentium4 processor and XP, with a Digidesign MBox2 as my audio/midi I/F (Asio4all sees it all EXCEPT the S/PDif i/o. I like my Fusion and Reaper a LOT, but have to say that I am very impressed by the look of the Yamaha MOXF8 and the steps they have taken to integrate its functionality, both MIDI and AUDIO with Cubase AI (which is bundled with the MOXF) . . . This video shows its integration well www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oCQMOUpMyoNot particularly the type of Music we do, but OK for a demo . . . . . . Only slight problem is that the wife would probably go ballistic if I acquired another 88 noter . . . Ah well - that's got to wait 'til later . . . . Best Regards Chris |
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Post by JohnG on Nov 2, 2014 11:44:06 GMT
Not misled, John, just given further food for thought . . . That's good then. Well now, the MIDI specification (I'm such a sad geek that I have a copy) tells us that 'Set Tempo', a Meta Data message, (FF 51 03 tttttt) allows a setting of micro-seconds per MIDI quarter-note. Which, on the face of it should be accurate enough. However, I believe many DAWs only implement it to the nearest whole number of b.p.m. and not fractions. I've always found whole numbers to be okay though. The pitch bend wheel, when used live, actually generates far too much data for the average MIDI file and can cause a stuttering playback of a MIDI file. It's often a very good idea to use a 'thinning' utility within the DAW to get rid of many of the generated messages. This might be a cause of the stuttering you mentioned earlier. Although the human ear is very sensitive to pitch change, much more so than e.g. volume, there are often far too many inserted in a track. The pitch bend wheel is not to a fixed frequency, it can have its range changed from the usual default of + and - 2 semitones to e.g. + and - an octave (more if needed and the instrument allows), which would allow for the simulation of a slide all the way up or down a guitar fretboard for instance. But that would mean every time you released the wheel it would return to a fixed tempo! Much better would be the use of the modulation wheel, at least IMHO. But that is fixed from 0 to 127 so too small a range to be useful. Yes, it is a good program, but too focussed upon audio for my use, and a bit overcomplicated too. My copy is registered too. And there you've hit the nail on the head! I've reached the point with XGworks (and it is primarily MIDI focussed) that I don't really have to think about what I want to do, I just do it. It really is so easy, as I adjust controllers, up to three at a time, to expand vertically the controller I'm focussing upon make changes there, then shrink that one and expand another, and so on. E.g. overlap notes for legato playing of a phrase, then jump to put in a 'Hold on' after the first note and 'off' before the end of the last, then over to 'Expression' and adjust that so that the phrase swells and fades as necessary, then adjust velocity so that the start note has the right attack, and so on. I just haven't been able to do that with Sonar, Cubase, Reaper nor any of the others that I've tried. I'm sure it's possible, but I can do it all from one view in XGworks. I keep thinking about a PC upgrade, I go and look in my local Waitrose and some of the shiny new machines and then see Windows 8 (yuk!) and think "I'll have to buy a new audio/MIDI interface (no drivers for my E-MU) dump XGworks ...", and think "how long it would take me to sort it all out?", and I walk away happy and smiling. So I'll stay where I am for the foreseeable future. Kind regards, JohnG. |
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Post by parametric on Nov 3, 2014 2:32:31 GMT
But that would mean every time you released the wheel it would return to a fixed tempo! Much better would be the use of the modulation wheel, at least IMHO. But that is fixed from 0 to 127 so too small a range to be useful. Doh! - of course - why didn't I think of that? Mod wheel STAYS where you leave it . . . . I keep thinking about a PC upgrade, I go and look in my local Waitrose and some of the shiny new machines and then see Windows 8 (yuk!) and think "I'll have to buy a new audio/MIDI interface (no drivers for my E-MU) dump XGworks ...", and think "how long it would take me to sort it all out?", and I walk away happy and smiling. So I'll stay where I am for the foreseeable future. Kind regards, JohnG. I'm with you on that. I do NOT want to do Music on a smartphone or a tablet - so why would I want an OS that LOOKS like one? THIS place is always good to check out for an UPDATE machine. Morgan ComputersQuite powerful machines are available for GOOD prices . . They're NOT the latest (often end of lines or Grade A refurbs with guarantees) BUT many come with Windows 7 PRO (Which I BELIEVE, comes with XP included . . . which might suit YOUR needs) In fact There's Windows Machines from XP, all the way up to 8.1, and Many leading brands too. Just for a laugh, check out the Panasonic "Tough Book" Laptops . . . they're what the AA/RAC guys use to diagnose your car . . . . As you point out, upgrading IS a worry with drivers and compatibility. I was frankly surprised that my MBOX2 worked with Reaper, tied as it is typically - to ProTools - but I thought . . . WHY should I buy another audio/midi I/F when I have one sitting there? It actually has good A-D converters in it. Pity about the S/PDif though - as the Fusion has S/PDif out. Sometime I feel as if its a sledgehammer to crack a nut . . . . . . ALL of this is so I can tweak my "playing" as midi (listening to the sounds of the Fusion) and have those edits REMAIN in the final version, that can be EITHER "Produced" in Reaper - OR, the edited midis imported back into the Fusion so they can be "performed" from it, albeit with the Fusion's FX, rather than Reapers . . . . . . I just find that editing midi IN the Fusion is just too fiddly - especially on its small display. I think once I can satisfy myself that the workflow WORKS the way I'm expecting, I'll be a lot happier. I can still revert to my current MO of converting EVERYTHING to audio - and finish in Reaper, but it seems a shame NOT to use the Fusion's ability to handle 32 Tracks of MIDI - AND 8 tracks of audio. Together with it's INTELLIGENT Polyphony allocation (can run to hundreds of notes) it's a very powerful beast . . . . Experimentations will continue . . . . Chris [/a][/quote] |
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Post by JohnG on Nov 3, 2014 10:14:42 GMT
Hi Chris, I must check out the MBOX, I haven't come across it before, although I know M-audio of course. This is what I use SoS E-MU 1616m review. E-MU updated the drivers not long after the review, addressing most of the criticisms. It gives me everything I need and more, including S-PDIF and ADAT interfaces (which I no longer use), Hi Z for DI-ing guitars, phantom power and so on. But most of all, incredibly low noise. I was staggered just how quiet the electronics is. I invested in a second one I was so impressed. Should do me until I shuffle off this mortal coil! Both bought, still boxed although used, from Ebay at a bit under half price. One stays permanently 'plumbed in' to my home set up, the other is used when I take a 2nd laptop (ThinkPad X61) away for on-site recording or doing the occasional 50s/60s evening. They still come up for sale from time to time. I can use the cardbus card on its own without the breakout box, plugging my little studio speakers in directly to its 3.5mm line out socket. Yes, I imagine editing MIDI from a small display must be rather difficult. With my eyesight, as it now is, I'd say impossible. I've always been convinced of the principle of "horses for courses". These workstations are fantastic for creative stuff and performance, and good for little tweaks too, but it takes a big screen and more dedicated software to make substantial or technically challenging edits to files. I must admit to finding Reaper quite difficult to get to grips with. I prefer to use a much more simple MIDI focussed editor. Have you tried SQ01 that shipped with the Motif, I wonder? A later version of XGworks that supports VST's properly. It has a PRV with controller panes that allow editing of all controllers as well as tempo. Just a thought. I do find the modern DAWs that try to be everything to everybody just too complex for everyday use ... for my needs. They get in the way of making music IMHO. But it's just my 2d worth. Keep up the experimentation. Kind regards, JohnG. |
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