Ring them Bells (how to select a sound bank from CC00)

[andyb]

Hi JohnG (The Master !)  and anyone else who's clever

This forum has taught me a lot - have done lots of editing using my old Evolution Audio Lite and XGWorks.  Long live Windows 98 !!

Finally I have reached a sticking point.

I play in a duo and we use Midi through a Merish Midi Player.  It is very good.  But it is NOT XG, I'm guessing its an enhanced GM set, but it doesn't say.

For a midi file I'm editing (Blondie's 'Maria') there is a track for the Chimes in the chorus.  The voice selected is 'Tubular Bells' Prog 15.
But it doesn't sound quite right.

Now in the Merish manual at the end section, there is a table of Sounds.  Here is the table at sound 15 :

PC    CC00   Sound Name   Type
015      0      Tubular Bells     Chromatic Percussion
           8      Church Bells      Chromatic Percussion
           9      Carillon             Chromatic Percussion

So it looks like there is Church Bells available, and I guess 0 is the default Tubular Bells, 8 and 9 are available if called ?

I've read JohnG's tutorial 'MIDI files; the setup measure'.  Actually read it many times and now understand at least 10% !!

Here's an extract, for setting up Channel 2

Channel 2.

Meas/bt/pls    Message type       Value                Hexadecimal      Notes

0001 01 280  Channel control    Bank sel MSB     B1 00 79           Melody voice setup

0001 01 281  Channel control    Bank sel LSB      B1 20 00           Channel 2

0001 01 282  Program change   Voice select        C1 20               Acoustic Bass

0001 01 283  Channel Volume   100                   B1 07 64           Default Volume (100)


I guess it's somewhere here I'd put in the Prog Change command and the CC00 command ?

XGWorks displays it a bit different - as it doesn't display the hex !!

ignoring the measures, I've got :

TYPE          VALUE 1                          VALUE 2               VALUE 3
Control       Bank Select MSB (0)          Melody (0)
Control       Bank Select LSB (32)         Capital (0)
Program     Tubular Bells (15)
Control       Volume (7)                        50

Can you suggest how to edit the lines in XGWorks to get the Church Bells option ?

Oh the bells - the bells . . . . . . 

Many thanks

Andy

[JohnG]

Hi Andy,

Just to let you know that I've read your question and am preparing an answer for you.
Watch this space.

JohnG.

[JohnG]

Hi Andy,

Glad to know the forum has been useful to you.

Sept 8, 2018 21:10:12 GMT andyb said:

Hi JohnG (The Master !)  and anyone else who's clever

This forum has taught me a lot - have done lots of editing using my old Evolution Audio Lite and XGWorks.  Long live Windows 98 !!

Finally I have reached a sticking point.

I play in a duo and we use Midi through a Merish Midi Player.  It is very good.  But it is NOT XG, I'm guessing its an enhanced GM set, but it doesn't say.

For a midi file I'm editing (Blondie's 'Maria') there is a track for the Chimes in the chorus.  The voice selected is 'Tubular Bells' Prog 15.
But it doesn't sound quite right.

Now in the Merish manual at the end section, there is a table of Sounds.  Here is the table at sound 15 :

PC    CC00   Sound Name   Type
015      0      Tubular Bells     Chromatic Percussion
           8      Church Bells      Chromatic Percussion
           9      Carillon             Chromatic Percussion

So it looks like there is Church Bells available, and I guess 0 is the default Tubular Bells, 8 and 9 are available if called ?

I've read JohnG's tutorial 'MIDI files; the setup measure'.  Actually read it many times and now understand at least 10% !!

Only 10%? That's a bit disappointing, I'd hoped for at least 20%!

Anyway down below you'll find a bit of info on setting up your Merish player, hopefully.

Here's an extract, for setting up Channel 2

Channel 2.

Meas/bt/pls    Message type       Value                Hexadecimal      Notes

0001 01 280  Channel control    Bank sel MSB     B1 00 79           Melody voice setup

0001 01 281  Channel control    Bank sel LSB      B1 20 00           Channel 2

0001 01 282  Program change   Voice select        C1 20               Acoustic Bass

0001 01 283  Channel Volume   100                   B1 07 64           Default Volume (100)


I guess it's somewhere here I'd put in the Prog Change command and the CC00 command ?

XGWorks displays it a bit different - as it doesn't display the hex !!

ignoring the measures, I've got :

TYPE          VALUE 1                          VALUE 2               VALUE 3
Control       Bank Select MSB (0)          Melody (0)
Control       Bank Select LSB (32)         Capital (0)
Program     Tubular Bells (15)
Control       Volume (7)                        50

Can you suggest how to edit the lines in XGWorks to get the Church Bells option ?

Oh the bells - the bells . . . . . . 

Many thanks

Andy

So, as you rightly guess, the Program Change (PC) with its associated Bank Select (coming before it) typically go at the start of the track.

I managed to find a copy of Maria by Blondie for free on the Web, so I'm going to edit that in XGworks for you and add a few screen shots.

In it I found a track on Channel 9 with the sound "Crystal" programmed into it and that sound, in the Merish, has the name "Crystal Pad" and is located as,

sound PC=99 with a CC00=0. So you might wan to try that too.

Open the MIDI file in XGworks and you should see something like this:

You'll see that I've already selected Track 9 (which also happens to be Channel 9 and Block 9). Just click on the track.

Now right click on the track and choose "List". You should see something like this:

Don't concern yourself with anything but the first three lines, where you'll see I've entered "Tubular Bells" just as you have already.

To decode what you see here in XGworks, the first line is the "CC00" as described in the Merish table.

The full name of the command is Bank Select MSB (Most Significant Byte) and it's also known as Continuous Controller (CC) number 0.

(There are 128 Controller messages in total. The first 32, CC00 to CC31, can be thought of as the 'coarse' setting, the next 32, CC32 to 63, are the 'fine' setting.)

So we end up with Bank Select MSB (CC00, coarse) and Bank Select LSB (Least Significant Byte) CC32, fine.

But when we check the Merish manual we find that there is no use of the CC32 command, so we could just delete that command totally.

But, when a device doesn't recognise a MIDI command it just ignores it, so we can just leave it there.

To delete a line in the list view just click anywhere on that line and press the keyboard delete key.

So now to change the CC00 (or, in XGworks, Bank Select MSB) from 0 to 8, just click below "Value 2" where it currently says "Melody [0]"

and enter 8 or 9. You'll probably notice that the "Program" Tubular Bells" changes to "Silence". That's because there's no Yamaha instrument at CC00 PC15.

But it should work okay on the Merish.

If you want to try "Crystal Pad", Change the Program Change MSB (CC00) to "0" and the Program to "99", like this:

Any good? Please ask if you need further clarification.

Kind regards,

JohnG.

[andyb]

Hi John



Absolutely brilliant - many thanks for all that work and very clear explanation. - esp with all your screen shots.

And you even got the actual Blondie track !!


It was actually so simple - I had put values in the LSB line by mistake and got no change - that was my error
.  You have explained well why I got nothing (LSB line likely to be ignored on my Merish player.

So edited the MSB line - and as you said, the Program line says 'Silence' as it's not XG.


Yes got the different bank now and the sounds, so have tried Church Bells (bank 8) and Carillon (Bank 9).

Also tried your suggested 'Crystal Pad' - and yes fairly close, but Church Bells and Carillon a bit closer still to the desired sound.

Will now experiment on channel volume and blending notes.


Part of my confusion was in the tutorial :

Channel 2.



Meas/bt/pls   Message type    Value     Hexadecimal   Notes



0001 01 280 Channel control Bank sel MSB B1 00 79 Melody voice setup



0001 01 281 Channel control Bank sel LSB B1 20 00 Channel 2


I was trying to understand the B1 00 79, where in XG Works all you see is 'Bank Select MSB (0)  Melody (0).
I presume XG Works is interpreting the background Hex code into simpler display format ?
And B1 is within the midi bitstream is there to say this next command relates to channel 2 - but as you are in Block 2 on XGworks that is pre-done for you ?

The Sysex commands look to be the only XGWorks lines that are displayed as Hex ?




I need to get my head round 'Blocks' in XG Works - but I need to invest some time in reading the Help pdf that comes with it.  Tracks, Channels, now Blocks as well !!

Anyway - thanks again John - VERY kind of you.
Another happy customer !! :-)
Andy

[JohnG]

Great stuff, Andy.
Glad it worked for you. Many people get the Bank Select MSB and LSB confused.

As you've already figured out, XGworks tries to use an abbrieviated form of plain English as far as possible.
With SysEx messages, when they're of the Yamaha kind, it gives an English explanation too.
The ones you're seeing, having an initial code of "41H" (the identity assigned by the MMA (the MIDI Manufacturers Association)) means that they're the format required by a Roland instrument of some kind.

XGworks creates the MIDI messages in the exact format required as specified.
So, underlying what you see on the screen is "B1H 00H 79H". XGworks also splits out the various messages into tracks based on MIDI channels.
Not only that but if, for example, you've recorded piano left and right hand separately into independant tracks, but assigned both tracks to the same MIDI channel, it will show that.

With "blocks", it is just one way of assigning a name to a channel.

But XGworks only saves this information if the file is saved with an ".xgw" suffix. I.e. it's not part of the MIDI specification but unique to XGworks.

If you're interested in further research, it's worth going to the MMA web site and downloading the various specifications.
www.midi.org/specifications

They made them available as PDF files a little while ago.
I had to pay for my printed copies, which were rather expensive some ten yrears ago.
BUT ... don't expect to make immediate sense of them. They are housed in technical jargon.
The tables of all the various messages can be useful though.

With a good sequencer one shouldn't have to learn much, if anything, in the way of hex for the basic MIDI commands.

It should do all that for you.

Regards,

JohnG.